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Sorry to all if i sned varipous time the same mail thunderbird report me that i didnt send it. like reindl that is angry and furious telling me that im a idiot.

* there where FIVE replies to your post yesterday
* independent of what TB says, you got your own message from the list
* independent of what TB says, you got the replies from the list
* so you are an idiot

Am 18.04.2013 21:05, schrieb Andrei Rolando Le

35 thoughts on - Sorry

  • A lot of the “new improved” email web interfaces do this, including yahoo. I SO miss the more simple clients..

    (Hold on while I manually put > in the thread above me, so people know where the reply starts.)

  • Joseph Spenner wrote:

    I do that with most of my wife’s emails – she’s on Lookout, I mean, Outlook at work…. I DESPISE trying to read a thread someone forwards like that, read the bottom, go up, read down, then discover someone’s mailtool actually did it right, so go up to go down….


  • Could someone explain again why we are not suppose to top post?

    I have heard that is so when people come in late they can just read from top to bottom and find out what is going on. The only problem I have with that argument is most times people snip large parts of the thread so you don’t have all the info anyway. And If I pick up a thread late I don’t have any problem with reading someone’s reply on top and then reading on to find out what the thread is about.


  • Steve Clark wrote:
    with that argument is the info anyway. And someone’s reply on top

    Read my previous post on this. And add to it that a lot of us snip, so that we don’t have 150 lines to reply to one sentence in the middle. However, we *DO* leave in the stuff that makes that response comprehensible.

    However, top posting has ZERO relationship to somewhere in those 200 lines of post, complete with many sigs, that you’re responding to. How do I have a *clue*, without reading down, up up down, and on and on?

    This was a M$ “innovation”, just like, oh, IE6….


  • It is proper mailing list etiquette.

    There’s no hard and fast rule that a person cannot top post (c’mon it happens). But it definitely is nice when people don’t.

    Bottom posting allows a person to read from oldest to newest. And posting inline as many of us do, allows our comments to be grouped with the content we’re making a remark about.

    It’s also mighty nice when people trim out the old stuff that they’re not commenting on. At least when it’s loooooong email. (And there’s the disadvantage with missing content from snipping as you pointed out above.)

    Have a happy Friday everyone.

  • Because list messages go to many people who are only slightly interested and it makes it difficult to know what question is being answered.


    That’s a feature, not a problem.

    List conversations diverge over the course of the thread. One person’s response may answer one question and another be about a completely different part. Subsequent responses to each of these may have little to do with earlier parts of the thread. If each message contains the correct context, no one has to bother wading through the earlier messages only to find that they are mostly irrelevant. And in any case, your mail reader should be able to track the thread backwards in the unlikely event that you do want to read the whole previous set of messages so there is never a need to copy/quote the whole thing.

  • A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
    A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

    Although it’s become such a habit that I’ve had people say, you just sent me back an email with nothing added.

    People blame it on MS, and Outlook, but no, it’s simple laziness and sloppiness. Mutt puts the cursor at the top of an email too, and that’s where it should go. Then, you can read and reply inline, like a conversation.

  • Well I find people get very upset about it, and to me in the grand scheme of things it seems pretty low on the totem pole.


  • I can deal with the top posting (we are required to do that at work because of our customers), but the “you sent me a blank email”
    crowd (some top posters such as my vet) does get to me.

  • Am 16.05.2014 um 19:07 schrieb Steve Clark :

    because in conventional spelling systems of western languages text is written from top to bottom (applies also for reading) :-)

  • It’s polite and shows you are a gentleman. It’s in the same category of
    “consideration for others” as keeping to your locale’s preferred side of roads, hallways and stairways, restricting flatus in elevators, dressing in clean clothes that cover your locale’s taboo parts of the body, chewing with closed lips, cleaning teeth, ears, noses and butts in private, moderating the urge to scratch every single itch, not speaking in foul language in front of decent people, using correct spelling and grammar, not spitting, especially on carpets, and suchlike meaningless niceties.

    In other words, it’s part of pretending that one is not a baboon.

    It is true we are apes. We are the apes who pretend to be better than that.

    It’s almost as annoying as using funny fonts and failing to use fmt(1)
    to wrap lines at 72 characters. (So called flowed text.)

    Even worse is failing to trim posts of extraneous verbiage.

    And .sigs longer than the message.

    In the last few months, I’ve done some top posting in order to conform to the local norms of certain mailing lists (not this one), which I have noticed consist mostly of lamers. Today, I take the “never again” oath.

    BTW, the “totem pole” figure of speech here is inappropriate. “Low on the totem pole” refers to low social status, not low priority or importance, unless your intention was to accuse people who format their email according to the received standards as being low-class individuals.

    I point out to you that in the area of manners, it matters not a whit that you consider some behavior inappropriate, vulgar or even vicious. It matters what the other person feels; that is why there are no rules of polite behavior for when you are alone. Your goal (in the area of manners and etiquette) is to cater to what pleases others, not yourself.

    I’m not telling anyone what to do. I’m saying what is expected of them;
    meeting the expectations of others is one’s own choice.


  • Top posting ALWAYS makes sense when the poster has included nearly 200
    lines of redundant and time-wasting waffle from previous posters.

    Scrolling down – all the way down – to read a few words is time wasting and irritating.

    Until posters ruthlessly exclude all redundant material, top posting makes sense because it is the fastest and most efficient method of conveying a response to others on the mail list.

    There is an art to replying intelligently to a previous posting –
    interspersing replies to the previous poster’s comments BUT ALWAYS

    I blame M$ for introducing TOP POSTING.

  • Am 17.05.2014 23:22, schrieb Always Learning:

    False argument.

    Top-posting is nearly always combined with fully quoting the previous mailing. That is bsolutely unnecessary on a mailinglist and even a waste of resources.

    Strip off redundant content!

    Then why not just erasing all the rubbish you don’t care about?

    No, it just demonstrates that you as the top-poster and full quoter are not caring for the previous communication and not caring enough for a sane readable thread. If the top-poster just cares for his quick and
    “easy” action, then why does he reply at all?

    full ack!

    It makes no sense to blame a company, it is the people who don’t make enough effort to help everyone on a mailinglist to follow the discussions in an efficient way by seeing the questions and answers in a quick way.

    Have you ever searched for something in a mailing list archive and then stumbled about a thread where proper quoting and stripping the context is wildly mixed with top-poster and full-quoter messages? It is a mess to find the helpful arguments and content.


  • In reading through this perennial and ultimately time-wasting argument, I will simply say this.

    One of the adages that drove the creation of the Internet is thus: “Be conservative in what you send, and liberal in what you accept”.

    This could also be stated in the terms of another great piece of literature: “Take the beam out of your own eye before you worry about the mote in your brother’s”.

    Put another way, if people would just spend the time worrying about what they do and stop worrying about the behavior of others, this would be a much nicer world to live in. Even if it annoys you.

    Now I think I’m just going to filter out this thread, because in arguing back and forth about this, you’re just wasting MY space and time. Have a nice day.

    I almost both top posted AND bottom posted on this thread just to be annoying, but not worth it.


  • I am against TOP POSTING. But I write truthfully that it does make sense when the person, who incorporates 200 lines of redundant text in their reply, posts.

    I am responding to reality. Leider das “reality is not always perfect”.

    I wholly agree.

    I do with my postings.

    I am not a “top” poster. I am an “insert” poster.

    Wunderbar :-)

    I have experienced the same difficulties.



  • I’m posting from my phone so I can’t bottom post, but I believe this thread has gone on way to long. Lets drop it and get back to what this mailing list is all about. I would rather read posts about the same technical things over and over again that have been asked hundreds of times. But when questions like that get asked, alot of times people reply by saying “search the archives” or have you searched google yet. Where as the top/bottom posting question I believe should be answered with the search the archives or search google answer. This is just my 2 cents. Now back to your regularly scheduled questions.

    —–Original Message—–
    From: “Dave Stevens”
    Sent: ‎5/‎17/‎2014 7:07 PM
    To: “CentOS mailing list” ; “Alexander Dalloz”
    Subject: Re: [CentOS] Sorry

    Quoting Alexander Dalloz :


  • Am 18.05.2014 um 17:51 schrieb Chris Weisiger :

    I can say that the usability of the mail application for such a goal doesn’t support it in the way to accomplishing it in an efficient manner, but you can do it – it is not a nature law that is preventing you in doing it.

    Further more – the majority of bottom postings use (unconsciously) the design law of nearness, means the answer implies a context and such text context
    (e.g. inline) is important for the comprehension of the discussion.

    IMO most facts shows us that “bottom posting style” is on the long term a win for all actors.

  • then shut up til you can get on a proper computer that actually knows how to email.

    noone cares that you’re crippling yourself by using a telephone

  • I’m pretty sure that Microsoft email applications were top-posting long before Outlook arrived :-)


  • I’ts not really a bad thing in the context of 1< ->1 messages and business communications where you are interested enough to not need the reply put in context for you but might want the audit-trail of the whole previous conversation for reference.

    But mail list messages go to a lot of people who have only a passing interest and unless they are a participant in the thread, may not have seen it before to understand the context – or they may have found it in an archive, looking for the same answers. So, it you want anyone to pay attention, the message has to make sense on its own with irrelevant cruft removed and the new parts place in the correct context.

    Anyway, defaults only matter if you don’t understand how to move your cursor before typing.

  • There are 2 lines of M$ mail clients, Mail that became Outlook express and then Mail again and Outlook (the exchange enabled client).

  • Les Mikesell wrote:

    What Mike says, above, is *the* most significant argument, and, IMO, trumps all counter-arguments. This *is* a mailing list. Frequently, for example, I’ll be busy, or a thread doesn’t seem interesting, until I see something that leads me to look in on it… and if it’s filled with top-posted unreadable threads, even if I might have some really helpful suggestions, I usually don’t *want* to read enough to make them, because I
    have no idea what’s been suggested or discounted before, and I *ain’t*
    gonna read down, up, down, up, up, down….

    Top post if you want… but don’t expect cooperation or help.


  • The original Microsoft Mail wasn’t internet mail at all, it used a completely proprietary shared file system based server, although there was an awful internet gateway for it. This mutated into Exchange, which mutated into Outlook + Exchange Server.

    Outlook Express was originally Microsoft Internet Mail and News, MSIMN, it came out circa 1996, bundled with MS Internet Explorer 3. It got rebranded as Outlook Express circa 1998 and MSIE 4.0.